I have a 93 year old father who lives at home and has dementia and has had it for 3 years. His general health is ok for someone of his age and the only problem we are experiencing with his is the fact that when he wants to go to the toilet he does so in his hand or tries to dig it out with his hand and then offers it to us. He can do this up to 10 times a day or more. The message to sit on the toilet is just not getting through he is ok with urinating but its this blessed faecal incontinence. Is anyone experiencing this problem and if so how do they deal with it without losing their cool. It doesn't worry him in the least.

G'day to you all to Moms Buddy you are so right about the fingernails and after this weekend with my darling dad it seemed a littler easier just making light of the situation. Bunnys grl the 10 times I refer to is the amount of time it takes for the whole damn mess to come out over a period of perhaps 5 or 6 hours as he won't sit on the toilet for it to come out in one go and quite often when he wipes his bottom he only uses one square of toilet paper and won't be cajoled into using more so needless to say his fingers are always soiled. The movements are normal most of the time and when he gets agitated is when it is hard. They don't assess them in hospitals over here like they obviously do there - the doctor just monitors them each month. Hope I've answered your posts and thanks again - My weekend seemed much easier after all of your wonderful advice.

I gotta ask this Suellen when you say your dad goes in his hand up to 10 times, is he defecating or not? Im a little confused (often a state for me)
Are the bowel movements hard or loose?
If they are hard I have to agree with others he needs more fluids and roughage in his diet.

Suellen, when dealing with messes of this nature, it's not exactly like we can just call housekeeping to come clean the room and take away the laundry to clean... I think any of us who have had to deal with this on a frequent basis (not a once-in-a-while thing) has become impatient and fussed while cleaning up the mess...

Changing Mom doesn't upset me much, but cleaning up the witless messes she makes KNOWING how fastidious she always was makes me feel very sad. I don't know what she is thinking, if she is thinking or what - all I know is that this is who taught me a lot of what I know about bacteriology... where did all of that knowledge go? Such a cryin' shame... Sigh...

The only suggestion I have to ANYONE in this situation is try as hard as you can to remember that this ISN'T THEM!! This is the DISEASE causing this stuff to happen, not they themselves.

Please try to get more fluids, fruit, etc. into him... I REALLY think that constipation is at the heart of his behavior. And I DO understand how difficult it is to get folks to eat the things they need to help them function more normally. Just getting them to DRINK enough fluids to keep a bird alive is a feat in and of itself! They do not FEEL thirsty, yet they can get so dehydrated that their skin looks like an old saddle, bless their complete hearts!!

Do your best to keep your feelings detached from the event (and I know how difficult that is). TRY to keep forefront in your mind that IF he fully realized his behavior, he would be soooo humiliated... Make it as light on the both of you as you can... "Nothing a little soap and water won't take care of."

I hope that I never have to clean anyone's fingernails ever again. I'll clip toenails, I'll dress wounds, I'll flush ports and give shots and hold emesis basins, and change diapers and give baths, but after this, NO MORE FINGERNAILS!

I think I'll have mine removed!

Sweetie I dont know but that sounds a little different than here, when I say evaluated they admit a patient in the hospital and monitor behaviors and adjust/change meds.
Since my MIL was in the same boat they gave her tests, scans, got a psychiatric workup the whole nine yards, during that time they took her of most of her AD meds and tried Psychotropic class drugs.
Does that sound like the type of tests they put your dad through did they adjust medications or give him a full psychiatric work up?

thanks Bunnygirl he has been evaluated and they say he is ok at home with a carer he hated the assessors and wouldn't talk to them mind you he can hardly talk at all and they did ask him some stupid questions. He did go to respite a few years ago as I had to go overseas for work and he wouldn't eat said everyone in the home was mad. I know that he feels so safe at home and everything is familiar to him and for this reason I will keep him in his home for as long as I can. He is fine most of the time can't have much of a conversation with me as he is down to just words not sentences and this behaviour with his toilet seems to be his only problem and it does take its toll on him after an episode it usually takes quite a few hours for all of it to come out and he is exhausted after and sleeps for quite a while. He isn't on any medication he has a pacemaker fitted only takes vitamins except for some gout medication he has been taking for years and visits the doctor once a month for blood tests and the doctor seems quite happy with his general health given his age. I love him dearly and hate what this is doing to him and to me

Honey dont feel guilty I think in our experience we have tried just about every lil thing we could to correct behaviors like these but as you see it doesnt work.
Treat it like its a normal occurrence nothing more for somewhere deep inside he knows its wrong and hes embarrassed by it that much I have learned
My MIL actually apologized to me once not so long ago after we got her on a good mix of meds finally and lemme tell you I was stunned!
Iv had someone tell me they know what they are doing or saying is wrong but until you hear it with your own 2 ears you just dont put that much faith into that knowledge.
You have to learn to detach from the situation and thats a hard thing to do he is your father but detach is what you must do otherwise your frustration levels are going to get out of hand. I still say you need to go through his med list with a fine tooth comb.
Have you had your dad evaluated yet?

G'day to everyone out there who has responded to my post I thank you all so very much I now feel so much better than I did 2 days ago in the knowledge that this seems to be a normal occurrence and a gradual progression of this illness. My next question is one I feel quite ashamed to admit and that is sometimes I lose it with my dad after about the 7th or 8th change of underwear and cleaning of the hands etc.(when I say I lose it I call him a naughty boy and tell him he shouldn't do it as its dirty and not normal") he doesn't seem to remember me being horrid to him so how does one behave during this god awful process does one reprimand him (I have done so and he just looks blank at me and after I have done so I feel this incredible guilt)I have tried making light of the situation at times pretending that its normal with him and just clean him up as if it the most natural thing in the world. Does anyone out there suffer from these "guilts". Please don't think that I am a monster who is abusive to her father I am far from that but it is something borne from frustration I guess and I am looking for a way to combat this frustration and deal with it.

hey "mate"! Welcome.
I have this problem with my mom.
I think it is just a part of the loss of logic in their mind. Think of all the steps required from feeling the urge, to cleaning yourself! Too many for them to handle sometimes.

In mom's case she still knows it's a smelly mess and the handling of it is her way to get rid of it!

Regular bathroom visits help, with a regular diet sometimes you can predict when they will go. I always throw extra raisins in her morning oatmeal to encourage the BM during the afternoon when I can help. Mom wears a diaper but I still encourage the frequent supervised bathroom visite to help control the possible mess that can follow if she's left to her own.

I hope this helps. This is the difficult part of their mental decline but it can be managed.

PS-I LOVE "the brown glove" heading to your post! A good sense of humor will take you a long way on this caregiving journey!

Suellen, laughing as I went through this with my mother.She always had problems with constipation.
Even at her worst she recalled where there is a will there is a way.
Better out then in.The best thingis if we can keep them regular.Not always easy .Our elders are always aware of having to go and it not happening.
I guess my mother remembered , even with dementia, my having to use the glove..Allow this to be an open disgussion with him.Ak him if he is having problems going?I know, to some it is embarrasing but it is part of their well being.
Make sure you have plenty of toilet paper, baby wipes and hand cleaner.
Not eay when you walk in the bathroom and see cacas all over their hands etc.As I say, better , for them, out then in.Not being able to go can cause the afflicted with many side affects.To say it cleanses the soul is an understatement.

Oh my, Suellen! You sure have my sympathy. ...and you certainly are NOT ALONE. This is something that my mother and I had to deal with, and I know of a couple of other caregivers who have lived their own versions of this story.

In my mother's case I had to help her get to the toilet, and assist her through the entire process. She could not be left alone for safety reasons, but I soon learned that there were hygienic reasons (and my sanity) which demanded that I stay with her.

Mom not only dug poop out, but was also prone to trying to push it back in! And she never forgot to wipe smear (bless her heart!). But every time I saw this tendancy coming on, it turned out that she was more constipated than usual.

So, in her case it was the discomfort of the constipation which triggered the behaviour. But it was her dementia that made the digging, smearing, etc. seem like a good solution to her.

Toileting schedules can be very helpful, if you can get Dad to cooperate! My Mom would go, but couldn't manage to sit for more than two minutes. Something about her dementia made time go so slowly--if she had to wait a minute for anything, she'd feel as though she had been waiting for days! I'm sure her impatience on the toilet also aggravated her tendency toward constipation.

As others have mentioned, mirrors were also a problem for us, especially in the early years. Sometimes stepping from the carpet onto the bathroom's tile floor appears to our LO's like a step into an abyss. There can be MANY reasons they avoid the bathroom and/or toilet.

I would have a talk with the doc about it and keep a log of behaviors, as Bunny mentioned. And in the mean time, if you think it may be consitpation, see if increasing fluids might help. Fresh veggie juices and stewed prunes helped Mom a lot. Over time she had become dependent on strong laxatives the doc had perscribed, but the juices and prunes always pulled us through--even if it did take a few days to work!

Suellen welcome in Moms buddy is absolutely right on scheduling...well...sometimes it works...sometimes, not so much
Oh MB Im not disagreein wichya
Sorry Suellen care giver humor, sometimes a lil twisted
Seriously though, my MIL did this also, if he is refusing to go to the bathroom the mirrors may be the problem *my MIL talks to them as if theres actual people in there with her* shes also been known to wipe the seat (with the poop ) down for me when shes had an accident bless her heart.
The diggin for "gold"....Uh yep that too. Now for my MIL that meant that she was either havin a tough time going #2 OR if your Dad is a regular (meaning he HAS to go everyday) which is what my MIL believed then this could also be the reason for that, but several times? I would have to say there is a problem.

First on my list when I saw these types of behaviors get out of hand like you are relaying I would get him tested for a UTI if thats not the culprit here then the next plan would be to give some attention to medications he is on, their not working.
Did you change meds on him about the time this started, he may be having an adverse reaction to them.
This for us was one of the major reasons my MIL's behaviors were not getting any better besides her having a few UTI's.
Not all Alzheimer's drugs are created equal dont listen to the hype. Not from the ad's and CERTAINLY not from the Doctors, each individual is a unique human being with unique ailments, deficits, brain degeneration patterns.
If you are the primary caregiver to your dad do you keep a journal on behaviors for him? If so great, if not, START! Trust me this will help you and him in the long run.
List the types of behaviors he presents and the times of day.
Is he sundowning? Behaviors get worse towards the end of the day?
This will help his doctor prescribe the correct class of drugs for him

There are other threads here regarding this issue, but this is the first one I thought of. I do know there are some others dealing with an elder who couldn't leep hands out of it. Maybe some one else will be able to pull them up or remember some of the remarks.

There are many kinds of diapers, Mom wears the pull up kind so much like regular underwear. Good luck and stay tuned.

A lot of us are old ladies with cats now. Join the crowd.

Hi Suellen. That's a bit annoying, isn't it? Is it possible that there is something that is bothering him about eliminating? Have you discussed this with his doctor? Sometimes because people get confused, they get their wires crossed about what to do about a problem... For example, if he is constipated, his stool may be like semi-hard balls. It may be uncomfortable for him to sit and eliminate them the way one normally does, so his handing them to you may be his version of "hey, look at THIS sh*t" to get attention to the fact that he has a problem...

Perhaps taking him to the bathroom on a schedule (like around the time the handouts occur) might help prompt him to do what he needs to do there.

Does he REFUSE to sit on the toilet? Is there something about it that upsets him... cold seat, mirror nearby, etc.?

My first reaction was perhaps he needs to be drinking more water/fluids and improving his diet (fruits, helpful bacteria yogurt, prunes, 100% fruit juices, water soluble fiber drink, stool softener, etc.) so that he does not feel a need to "dig it out"...

Even though his behavior seems bizarre and more than a little revolting, it MAY be based on something REAL that he is having a problem with that he just can't communicate any way other than the way he is choosing.

What a handful...

Hi Bobcat - Thanks a million that info was invaluable simply because you really think that it is only happening to you and no-one else. I have tried a forum in Australia and even spoke to the Alzheimer's people and they said they had never heard of such behaviour. Another said it was common practice but offerred no help except to buy diapers which of course he will not wear. I really am incredibly grateful regards Suellen

Hi, Suellen and welcome to ECO. What a way to start. I am going to refer you to a thread from a while back. Pay careful attention to Mom's_Buddy's posts in this topic. It may not change things, but may help you understand what is happening.

http://eldercare.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/32560301...191009064#6191009064

If you have been reading here very long, you are aware that usually the most recent post is right under the origional post, with the earliest ones at the bottom. So to follow it from start to finish, scroll to the end and read up after reading the question.

I hope you will go to the New Caregivers Meeting Romm and introduce your self a little.

I hope we can help you stay sane. I don't know how I would make it with out this support.