HI. This is Susan again. MY Dad has been brought to a facility here in Jersey, They have a geriatric ward there.
This thing is We -the family- can't have an appointment to see the psychiatrist treating my dad until next Tuesday the earliest. WE can only talk to the social worker via the phone and she will then talk to the psychiatrist. We couldn't visit him yesterday because the visiting hours are Tues and Thursday only. And weekends.
The thing is, WE are feeling like, He just got in, they don't know anything about him, except for what info they had at the ER..which we were unable to see him in..In there words we were kept outside waiting for four hours while they did whatever. Then finally they talked to us to let us know they were transferring him to the geriatric mental health facility. I guess we figured once he got there, they'd want to see us and get information from us. But all they are going on is what info they got from the ER. Is this normal? I mean we can talk to the social worker..if we call, she never called us, but she just told us they' re are taking him off two meds and they did this without consulting us or his doctors,just basing it on the ER information. Aren't the families opinions of any value to them? I would think since we are the people that were living with him for all this time, our experience would be valuable to them. They never even called us to ask us for information, we called them. I'm really upset right now and perhaps not seeing things clearly , I'm trying to get an idea of what's normal in these sort of cases. I mean IF I were an inpatient it would be different because I can speak for myself and tell you information you would need to know, but my Dad can't. He may seem like he can, but he's not in his right stated of mind...that's why he's there.
Can anyone tell me what happened to them when they had to have someone taken to a facility . any help appreciated. I can't see sitting here waiting until my appointment next week just hoping they're doing the right thing.
Susan

I recently went through a problem that involved my Grandmother. I had to bring him into my home because she was unable to live by herself and I couldn't afford a nursing home. There is a service available on the net that helped me out. My husband and I was able to find someone to come into my home and take care of her.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Moms_Buddy,

quote:

quote:

Remember that nothing replaces checking with the doctor about treatment.

I'm just shocked that an RN would give out advice to an online forum member without recommending checking with your doctor!

We can't be sure of anyone's credentials in this situation. Claiming to have medical expertise online is dangerous.

Anyone could claim they are experts when indeed they are not. My intentions were to caution you and other members to always trust in person medical advice above all else.

I totally agree, Dochka! When I have researched "experts," I find that many go from forum to forum to get folks to come to their own site, to get "free information" which leads to the selling of a scam product or service. They are NOT really involving themselves in a site - only appearing to do so to feather their own nest.

People, be VERY CAREFUL out there!!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Moms_Buddy,

DOCHKA, it's pretty common for doctors to use ativan for combative patients, regardless of the diagnosis. I don't the dianecarbo was just doleing out bad information.
No, it's not recommended because like dementia it can cause confusion and halucinations in sensitive patients..but when you're dealing with high agitated people, the doctors do use it.
Zyprexa is also contraindicated..and the social worker, when my father was in the hospital actually appealed the use of it for my father..she was very concerned. Under the circumstances for us, she was overridden.
Dad has been on zyprexa for a year now..although we, the doctor and I, took him off the morning dose a few weeks ago.
He hasn't had any ativan in at least 6 or 7 months. But I keep it on hand.
Sometimes doctors use these drugs to not only calm the patient so they don't hurt themselves, temporarily, and so they don't hurt others..
Situations where a patient cannot be controlled often can lead to them being forcefully committed to an institution. Had the family used these drugs, they might be able to stay at home.
The dementia patient often has little control over their emotions and/or their actions.

A good psychiatrist will usually find the answer and the correct meds.Truer words were never spoken.Too many make a blanket diagnosis and cause much harm.I experienced the best and the worst.

quote:

A person that has to live and deal with a combative and difficult individual may find that a dose of ativan will be calming enough to make life tolerable for both parties.

Diane, I'm surprised that as an RN you would say this, as ativan (lorazepam) is contraindicated for the elderly according to Beer's List. http://www.dcri.duke.edu/ccge/curtis/beers.html

Please be careful with the advise you dole out to our members as an RN. Remember that nothing replaces checking with the doctor about treatment.

Having your POA with you will get your answers faster. Go different times during the day too so they never quite sure when to expect you.

quote:

Originally posted by secondchild:
Does anyone have a power or attorney? Is he married? Have you contacted the ombudsman or patient liasion?
You have to have a legal right to see him? It's not the Dr's job to work that out. And the social worker is more like an administrator, so once he's out of the hospital and into the facility, her job is really about him, not you. At least that was my experience.
I have medical power of attorney so it's never a problem, but there are times that they seperate us in medical facilities until I present my power of attorney.

SnowyLynne you're right, but my dad was an alcoholic and it was the only way to get him through the withdrawals..I consider it an exception, however it was one of the medications he was on during the summer. Zyprexa is also not recommended for dementia, but after all those years of heavy drinking, he needed something to calm his mind until he adjusted to not having alcohol.

Ativan is NOT a good medication for anyone with Dementia period!

quote:

Originally posted by mae:
slms, I can understand your concerns.When my husband was admited to a behavioral unit I thought they had correct information.I was so wrong.My son and I were always telling them to go check his charts and records.Even those in the gathering room wereill informed.When I would tell them they were not well informed they got mad.I would insidt they have a meeting wiit you and disguss everything.I had the same with my mother.Because she had chocked on food one time because she was so upset they wanted to put her on that soft and pureed garbage.You have a right to see the reports.They make many errors when communicating with one another and the facts cannot always be corect.Follow your instincts.I would visit my hubby every day and my son went at night.Also we could be sure he was getting the proper care or lack of.The only good thing that came from it was he was diagnoised as was my mother and given meds that worked.
My experience was one of hands on at all times.
My son got so pissed one time that they were going to call security and have him removed.He told them to go a head.He was going to smack a rent a nurse for being less then professional with my husband.The psychiatrist is one of the best but the help is not that great.

Thanks for your message Mae,
I'm sorry fro those lousy experiences you've had.
The thing is I have had my own history of dealing with doctors that didn't do the right things. Or ignoring my own feelings. And wound up suffering for it. I know I have to let the doctors do their jobs, But I can't trust them completely. I just want to make sure what they're doing is right..also,
MY father was once in the hospital for anemia..he had to have a blood transfusion. While he was in there it was discovered he had liver cyrosis. Now my dad never drank, and really had a reason for having liver problem, After he got out of the hospital, we got all of his records from his doctors office. IT clearly shows a decline in my fathers hemoglobin over the proceeding three months. There was no reason that doctor had to let it get so bad that my Dad had to get a trasfusion. He shouldv't caught it much sooner. All he had to do is look at his records. Also I found he had three drugs that could cause liver problems. SO its very likely he got sick from those pills. He should have been monitored while he was on them. I mean if you can give out the pills , you can give out the blood test. Needless to say we got rid of the doc but the damage was done. I have a little problem with trusting doctors now and I don't think that it's out of control, I'm just trying to not be an idiot.LOL I mean I have also gone through years of crap with my own doctors. I do think you have to find a way to be on top of things while letting the docs do their job. But it's hard. So right now, I'm One of the ways I do that is by asking people at forums like this what their experiences are . It helps.
thanks for sharing your experiences. It makes me feel good to know someone understands where I'm at.
thanks'
Susan

quote:

Originally posted by secondchild:
Susan. I'm new to your issue. But I want to put my two cents since it sounds similar to mine. My dad is finally becoming himself again. He's awake much of the day..except today LOL..
After his detox he was put on heavy psychotropic drugs..zyprexa and adavan. It made him a drooling zombie for about 6 months.
I hated it. It made him unable to function. He would get up and pee in the kitchen in his euphoria.
During that time, when he was "awake" he would push and shove me trying to "go home". Sometimes he would try to hit me. I would block his hands because he just didn't have the strength and he didn't know what was going on.
One time he pulled my hair out, I pushed him back and he fell. That ended the episode with little to no injuries to him.
His doctor once had to call 911 for me because I was on the phone with them about uping his meds when he hit the phone out of my hand.
Sometimes the police would come.
My daughter was the only one that could calm him with her presence. But being a teen, she wasn't always home.
Now a year later, he doesn't get adavan at all. We have taken him off the morning dose of zyprexa and reduced his blood pressure meds to the lowest dose available.
It takes time to get the right drugs that work. The brain is a complicated thing.
He no longer tries to leave on his own, or at least he doesn't argue when I say not right now.
He is physically healthy and getting stronger. His mind continues to deteriorate, but we work with it as we go.
I know you're frustrated, but there are some wonderful therapies out there that will work to a point. Let the dr's do their job.
Your dad is lucky he has you and your deep concern for him.
I'm sure he was a wonderful man back when.
Good luck.

Thanks a lot for you post. It sounds like you've gone some similar things.'
The thing is Like I said in my last post, he is not that bad with the Dementia..As far as functioning he just a little slower and a little more confused about certain things than normal. What's really the problem is he's been sick and in pain. And they couldn't give him pain meds because of his liver problems. And it seems that the pain would send him into such a frenzy he would become aggressive. He' s probably also depressed, I really don't think it' s juts the dementia itself, But a combination of things.
SO I'm glad he's in the hospital and they are giving him things to do and think about, It seems to have gotten his mind off of his pain. MY mother said today he was saying how he was talking to some people and telling him about his movie collection, but he's still complaining about being there. I'm like so what, He's always complaining. LOL At least this way it forces him to get involved in something besides himself and his problems.
I just hope they keep him in long enough to show him he needs this in his life.
Not that I'm against drugs and i hope
they can help him. But i think he needs a place to go and have something to do. The only problem is if he isn't forced to do it he won't.
I"m hoping if he does come home that they somehow set something up for him to go to during the day, to give him something to focus on besides his problems.
I'm glad you Dad is feeling better, and hope things continue to go well, or , as well as they can.
thanks for your words.
Susan

quote:

Originally posted by Bunnys_grl:
Aaaah now we gotcha Susan
Well first of all the fact that you have all been battling this for months with your Dad with medical professionals, APS, Social workers and his PCP they have charted everything from recent visits along with dads PCP reports and your 911 report.
I honestly think they (the ones involved in his case) are giving both you and your mom a break and taking care of the business at hand, your dad.
In all honesty he may be calm but that is only the meds they have him on at the moment they need to try different meds on him and since they tried and sent him home on Abilify and this last incident was the outcome from this med....see where Im going with this Susan.
The med appeared to work but it didnt, they would be remiss in their duties to send him home on a med used in an emergency situation to calm an agitated patient. The nurse that told you he should go home was out of line period. She can not walk into the middle of a case and make a call on a patient when she has absolutely no history on him. I know you might side with her but the simple fact is that kind of thinking got you into this mess here in the first place remember that sweetie. So the next time someone pops off like that to you just say thank you and leave it at that.
Take this time to breath and allow these people to do their job. All they are trying to do is keep you and your mom safe as well as your dad.
They can not put your dad back in the home and risk another incident like this.

Thanks for the reply. I guess I just wanted to know if this was normal, and that they are treating him right. It still doesn't make sense that they wouldn't want info from the family, but we are able to talk to the social worker , over on the phone if we want, so that's something.
No, you misunderstood, I didn't side with the Social worker about him coming home, I was afraid they would discharge him too soon. The things is with him, He' s not that bad Dementia wise. He knows if he acts up they'll keep him longer if he's nice it's more likely they'll send him home. That's what happened last time. And so I'm just worried that if they see his calm demeanor, they might just release him again without getting him the help he needs. especially after that comment the social worker made about don't we want him to come home.
It' s not that I don't want him home . I just want him to get the help he needs so we don't have to go through this again..I'm just nervous about them judging him based on his current behavior only, and just looking for reassurance that after all of this mess, that something's gotta change ..for the better.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: slms,

Susan. I'm new to your issue. But I want to put my two cents since it sounds similar to mine. My dad is finally becoming himself again. He's awake much of the day..except today LOL..
After his detox he was put on heavy psychotropic drugs..zyprexa and adavan. It made him a drooling zombie for about 6 months.
I hated it. It made him unable to function. He would get up and pee in the kitchen in his euphoria.
During that time, when he was "awake" he would push and shove me trying to "go home". Sometimes he would try to hit me. I would block his hands because he just didn't have the strength and he didn't know what was going on.
One time he pulled my hair out, I pushed him back and he fell. That ended the episode with little to no injuries to him.
His doctor once had to call 911 for me because I was on the phone with them about uping his meds when he hit the phone out of my hand.
Sometimes the police would come.
My daughter was the only one that could calm him with her presence. But being a teen, she wasn't always home.
Now a year later, he doesn't get adavan at all. We have taken him off the morning dose of zyprexa and reduced his blood pressure meds to the lowest dose available.
It takes time to get the right drugs that work. The brain is a complicated thing.
He no longer tries to leave on his own, or at least he doesn't argue when I say not right now.
He is physically healthy and getting stronger. His mind continues to deteriorate, but we work with it as we go.
I know you're frustrated, but there are some wonderful therapies out there that will work to a point. Let the dr's do their job.
Your dad is lucky he has you and your deep concern for him.
I'm sure he was a wonderful man back when.
Good luck.

slms, I can understand your concerns.When my husband was admited to a behavioral unit I thought they had correct information.I was so wrong.My son and I were always telling them to go check his charts and records.Even those in the gathering room wereill informed.When I would tell them they were not well informed they got mad.I would insidt they have a meeting wiit you and disguss everything.I had the same with my mother.Because she had chocked on food one time because she was so upset they wanted to put her on that soft and pureed garbage.You have a right to see the reports.They make many errors when communicating with one another and the facts cannot always be corect.Follow your instincts.I would visit my hubby every day and my son went at night.Also we could be sure he was getting the proper care or lack of.The only good thing that came from it was he was diagnoised as was my mother and given meds that worked.
My experience was one of hands on at all times.
My son got so pissed one time that they were going to call security and have him removed.He told them to go a head.He was going to smack a rent a nurse for being less then professional with my husband.The psychiatrist is one of the best but the help is not that great.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mae,

Aaaah now we gotcha Susan
Well first of all the fact that you have all been battling this for months with your Dad with medical professionals, APS, Social workers and his PCP they have charted everything from recent visits along with dads PCP reports and your 911 report.
I honestly think they (the ones involved in his case) are giving both you and your mom a break and taking care of the business at hand, your dad.
In all honesty he may be calm but that is only the meds they have him on at the moment they need to try different meds on him and since they tried and sent him home on Abilify and this last incident was the outcome from this med....see where Im going with this Susan.
The med appeared to work but it didnt, they would be remiss in their duties to send him home on a med used in an emergency situation to calm an agitated patient. The nurse that told you he should go home was out of line period. She can not walk into the middle of a case and make a call on a patient when she has absolutely no history on him. I know you might side with her but the simple fact is that kind of thinking got you into this mess here in the first place remember that sweetie. So the next time someone pops off like that to you just say thank you and leave it at that.
Take this time to breath and allow these people to do their job. All they are trying to do is keep you and your mom safe as well as your dad.
They can not put your dad back in the home and risk another incident like this.

HI I'm going to try to answer some of the questions everyone's had in one post. First sorry, I didn't give all the details but I'm not thinking straight. First, he was taken to the ER because my Mom called 911, and I"m not sure of the name but it was something like elder protective services. It was a place specifically for situations like this. This is the third time we had to call someone. He was being abusive mentally and physically. He is not real strong but having anyone push you around in your own home is not acceptable. The first time he went to the hospital. They released him after a week. They had given him Abilify and thought he was better. This was just a regular hospital though., not a psych unit.
THen I called 911 the next time when he was being aggressive. BUt basically nothing happened that time.(I went into the details in the in the introduction I gave here).
Then he again was starting to push my MOM around and she called to cops. This time they took him to the ER and evaluated him in the psych ward. That is where they left us waiting so long and we couldn't see him at all. Next he was transferred to a mental health facility, but only as a sort of holding center I guess, SO then we got to see him after a day, and later that day he was moved to the facility he is at now..the one where he'll be treated at. Now, they didn't have visiting hours Mondays so we didn't see him again. BUt we were able to see him today.
The thing is I understand that he was unable to see us because they were placing him and all and the first day he was in the new place just happened to be a day when there were no visiting hours.
What I am upset about is that they didn't call us to ask for info or plan a meeting with us. They will not meet with us to talk, until next Thursday, And i just thought, we are his family, we know his behavior and what's going on with him , and all they're going is what info they got from the ER.
And , no we don' have Power of attorney. But he did not willingly admit himself into the ER. This was done because my Mom called the Cops .
The thing is my Mom saw him today and he was calm and quiet. IN fact the first call we got from the social worker the night he got there was her saying how calm he was and are we sure we didn't want him home?
This is the guy that has been turning the house upsidedown for months, who would wake her up by screaming in her face. etc. Now he is sitting there calm an quiet.
So it worries me that they aren't so interested in talking to the family. Because we know what he's been like, and what they are seeing is not it. This is similar to what happened when he was in the hosital. He was even showing aggressive behavior there, to the nurses but as soon as he was acting calmer they wanted to send him home. I mean he calmed down, and two days later he was home. A week later we were callng the police because he was acting exactly the same. WHen I say abusive, I mean not letting my Mom sleep, pushing her, yelling at me when I 'd stand up for here. Being verbally abusive to me, he would try to hit me but i held him down so he din't do that as much as pushing my Mom, He did scream in my face, Call me terrible names, and come after me to hit me, but i told him i'd call the cops. If you wre laying in bed he take the pillows and throw them on the floor, pull the sheet of of you while you were alseep. etc etc. I woke just about every day to yelling. One day IA ran into the next room and he had his hands around here neck..This was the first time we called 911,
After that I made her sleep in my room. Which meant neither of use slept because he'd bang on the door all night every few hours to wake us up. Just to give you idea of what I meant by agresseive.
But now he is just very quiet and calm, And I'm just upset that we aren't being asked in to help them understand him better. They do have the report from the ER but I don't know how clear a picture it gives them.
It just frustrates me because i'v e always heard that the family has valuable information. when treating a psychiatric patient. ANd I would figure that was even more true fro people that are being treated fro dementia since they aren't clear on things themselves.
Again, he was not admitted voluntarily but we don't have Power of attorney.
I talked to my own therapist today . SHe said although there' s nothing really I can do about getting a meeting with them sooner I can call the social worker and make sure she has all the information I want to her to know. And to keep asking questions about what they are doing.

Susan, there's a lot missing from your post...

How was he admitted? Was he admitted involuntarily? Did the police take him to the ER or to the psych facility or what? DId Elder Protection Services order his removal from the home? Where does the ER fit into all of this? If he admitted himself, no one has any rights until such time as he is found to be incompetent to handle his own affairs. Since we have no idea from your post of how he got there, we really can't offer much in the way of suggestions... The laws differ from state to state about things like this, also, which is even more complicating...

I am assuming that your mother has a DPOA for a situation like this. If she does not, she needs to see about getting her husband to sign one pronto during a period of lucidity; otherwise, she will have an uphill battle to oversee his care. SHE is his next-of-kin. SHE has to contact people with her questions and complaints. If she is unsatisfied with the explanations given to her, SHE needs to seek counsel from an attorney specializing in elder law. As his daughter, unless he has named you in a DPOA, there is absolutely nothing you can legally do.

When someone is violent and is taken in for evaluation, it is not unusual for there to be little in the way of visits, etc., depending on how the person came to be there, the problems, etc. The staff at the hospital doesn't know your dad or any of you, so it's their responsibility to protect his rights and make independent evaluations of his condition. Being taken in for mental observation is pretty rough stuff for both the family and patient, but sometimes, there's no other way to get help for the person...

Was there a specific reason behind the ER visit Susan?
No its not right that they keep you in the dark IF you hold his DPOA but your mom has the immediate right to see him just not you if your not his medical representative but usually being as how your the daughter they do usually let it slide and allow you access unless of course hes in a lock down unit.
Was she able to see him at all?
If the treating physician took him off certain meds then there was a reason so yes they can make an executive decision to remove meds from his protocol if in fact there is a problem with these meds.
Honestly Susan there are too many variables here to answer the questions with any certainty so your just going to have to wait patiently till they allow access but my bet is there is a legitimate reason.
Please keep us posted on your progress.

Hello Susan, I am sorry to say that this is a little out of my experience level. If Tues is visiting day, that is today. Hopefully you will get to see him. Often the head nurse is more valuable than the doc, but only when approached with respect.

What precipitated his trip to the ER? His own doc should be able to talk with the hospital and report to your mother since she is next of kin. Unless you hold DPOA for him or he has specifically given permission for them to give you information, there are privacy laws that forbid them legally to talk to you.

Breathe, I hope someone with more closely related experience can offer more.

Does anyone have a power or attorney? Is he married? Have you contacted the ombudsman or patient liasion?
You have to have a legal right to see him? It's not the Dr's job to work that out. And the social worker is more like an administrator, so once he's out of the hospital and into the facility, her job is really about him, not you. At least that was my experience.
I have medical power of attorney so it's never a problem, but there are times that they seperate us in medical facilities until I present my power of attorney.